Amanda Dellinger 0:00

Living in a housing cooperative, and all that's required is a lot of work. You know. So there's there's there's pluses and negatives, but the residents feel like that's the best way to go and we empower them to make their own decisions.

Ethan Waldman 0:17

Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast, the show where you learn how to plan, build and live the tiny lifestyle. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman, and this is episode 160 with Amanda Dellinger. SquareOne Villages is an amazing organization creating self-managed communities of cost effective tiny homes for people in need of housing in and around Eugene, Oregon. My guest Amanda Dellinger is the Community Relations Director and if you're curious about tiny home villages, this conversation is a must-listen. We start by exploring the co-op model for housing and delve into all the details of how these tiny home villages are funded, built and maintained. I hope you stick around.

Before we get to that, I want to give a shout out to a listener named Stephanie in New Zealand. Stephanie writes, "Hey, Ethan, I just want to congratulate you on the epic and informative podcasts. I listened to them while driving and plan to build my container home over the next year." That's awesome, Stephanie and I really appreciate you getting in contact. If you've been listening for a while, you know, I love to hear from podcast listeners. I've even set up a special email address where you can email me with comments, suggestions, guest ideas. And hey, if you ask a question, I might even answer it on the show. If you want to get in touch all you have to do is email podcast @thetiny house.net. And if you really want to help me out, please leave a review of the show in Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Alright, let's get on to today's show.

All right, I am here with Amanda Dellinger. Amanda is the Community Relations Director at square one villages in Eugene, Oregon. In 2016, Amanda's wife taught her how to build while building their tiny house on wheels in Arvada, Colorado, and lived in it for four years. They moved their home to Eugene in 2017 and have fallen in love with the Willamette Valley. Amanda feels strongly that tiny houses provide a powerful opportunity for people in many different situations, including those dealing with disabilities homelessness or housing insecurity. She's passionate about building opportunities for people coming from vulnerable situations to experience living in them. Amanda Dellinger, welcome to the show.

Amanda Dellinger 2:38

Thank you so much for having me.

Ethan Waldman 2:40

You're very welcome. It's great to have you. So I was hoping if you could just start by kind of telling us you know, what, what is square one village, there are so many different tiny house communities and tiny house villages, so many different models. So you know what, square one?

Amanda Dellinger 3:00

Absolutely. So SquareOne Villages started back in 2013, after the eviction of the Occupy camp here in Eugene. And really it started as a group of people. Actually a committee that was assigned by our former mayor, who is now our board president funny enough to to come up with innovative solutions to finding somewhere for people to be that didn't that were on house. And so our organization was volunteer run for the first couple of years. And really, it started out as our mission was to create a transitional tiny house village called opportunity village. In fact, that was the original name of our organization was opportunity village. And so we worked with the city and we found a city owned lot. And we had an incredible community, a fundraising campaign and a community building campaign. And, and we built 30 Well, actually, at that time, it was 29 micro shelters essentially. So it's like a detached bedroom. They're not heated, they are not on permanent foundations. But they there is a community Yurt that is heated it has a wood burning stove, a pellet stove, and then shared common facilities, so an outdoor shared kitchen, little little Yurt that have electricity for refrigerators and freezers and then a bathroom and shower facility. And then also laundry. So all of that is shared and then people have a place that they can go That's the stairs, they can lock the door, they can have their things. So very simple concept. That's a step up from the street, and really a transitional type space, we don't have a limit on how long people can be there. But soon after we built that we realized, wow, what good is a transitional village, if there's no way for people to transition to weightless, we're so long, there's still so long. And there's not a lot of options. And so in about 2015, we realized that really the the answer to solving homelessness is creating more affordable, permanent housing. And so we started building Emerald village, which is also in Eugene, and there's 22 units there, there's 22 homes there on about an acre. And there. They're full homes, they have heat, they have electricity, there's running water, kitchenettes bathrooms, some even have bathtubs. And the way that we approach that was also very community minded. There was a lot of different architects that donated their time any different builders. And so that was very much a community campaign as well. And then we changed our name to square one villages, and we changed our mission, we made it bigger at that time. And, and then we in about 20 2017, we wanted to bring our model to a rural area in Oregon, and found a group called the cottage village coalition down in Cottage Grove, Oregon, and found a site down there, Meyer Memorial Trust, gave us a grant, I purchased this at about a little bit over one acre, where we could build 13 Tiny Homes and a community center down there. And so that's the campaign that we're just now finishing up. And so really, Square One has to two different two different types of housing. Okay, really one isn't housing and shelter, their shelter program, and the other one is permanent, affordable housing. Okay. And I'll say one more, and I'll say one more thing, even that the permanent housing is we create them as housing cooperatives, so they're totally self ran.

Ethan Waldman 7:24

Excellent. Yeah, that that is exactly what my next question was right. On the homepage. I think for SquareOne Villages, it says, you know, a permanently affordable Tiny Home Co Op. Um, can you explain, you know, what, what the co op model is?

Amanda Dellinger 7:39

Yeah, absolutely. So, there are, there are a lot of great pieces about the co op model. And the first one that I'll mention is that these projects are completely financially self sustaining. So we raise the money to develop them, and then they're not paying off a mortgage. And so the monthly we call them carrying charges, it's like rent monthly rent, that goes into pay for all of the operating expenses. And also a portion of it goes into a long term maintenance reserve, so that when it comes time to replace a roof, or there's some kind of maintenance needs, that's not coming out of residents pocket. There's funds for that already. And so a housing cooperative, the all of the residents essentially form a board. And, and then they have elected officials, so president, vice president, treasurer, Secretary, and then there's three primary committees that are needed to run a housing cooperative administrative Committee, which are the elected officials, membership committee, and house in grounds. So house and grounds, you know, they manage anything from gardening to small repairs that need to happen, things like that. And the membership committee is who deals with new members, new residents, so the application process, they decide how new residents are selected, they review the applications they select, who will come for an interview, and then they conduct the interview and anyone out of the entire village is invited to the interviews of new residents. And then they as as a whole, they decide who becomes the new resident at it and, and so we really do this to to empower the residents. And, and, and, you know, create a culture where they feel like they have a lot of agency over where they live, that they have like an ownership stake. And at Emerald Village, this is a little bit different down in cottageville By the Emerald village, they pay between 250 and 350 a month for their carrying charge. And $50 of that goes into a long term maintenance or it goes into a savings account essentially nice. So the for the first 30 months, and so if they decide to leave after those 30 months, then they have 15 $100 that they can take with them. If they decide to stay, which they can, then that stays in the savings account for them. And so that's their, that's how they gain equity, essentially. And so the residents don't own their home outright. They own a share in the co op. And at Emerald village and cottage village are both leasehold co ops. So the co op doesn't actually own the homes. But what we're doing for our future villages is where we're figuring out how to create a limited equity Co Op, which means that the co op actually owns the homes and improvements on the land nice.

Ethan Waldman 11:07

Do residents have to buy in at all? Or is it just by application.

Amanda Dellinger 11:13

So at Emerald village, they just pay the first month's rent and apply and then at Cottage village, they we don't have the $50 a month goes into a savings account for them. Essentially what we do is we ask for a $500 share purchase is what it's called. Yeah, it's like a down payment when they move in, and then and then also the first month's rent. So nice. So there's there's a little bit more there. Yeah. And then in the future when we're doing these limited equity co Ops, which will be how we how we create peace village. And then also another village that we're involved with called C street village is there's a share purchase. So depending on how much money we're able to raise, it'll be between 5010 $1,000 for a share purchase to essentially buy, buy your share in the co op. And we're looking at different ways to finance that through our organization and through through other ways as well.

Ethan Waldman 12:21

Very, very amazing. And just, you know, there are very few successful tiny house villages out there. And for one organization, you know, to have now belt three, or is it three? Counting? Yeah, so having belt three, that's just amazing. I see on, you know, Emerald village and cottage village, that it says, you know, target population. So for cottage village, it's 30 to 40% of the area median median income. And for square one village, it's 15 to 30% of area median income. Can you explain kind of what that means? And why why the two are different?

Amanda Dellinger 13:05

Sure, absolutely. So for Emerald village, we, we really wanted to make this. I mean, we want to make all of our villages as affordable as possible. And Emerald village was our first project in trying to figure this out. And we raised about $1.8 million to create the project. And, and, and we set those monthly carrying charges, you know, is so low so that we could serve a lot of the people who were at opportunity village, we realized they they do have a monthly income. And there's the they just can't afford anything with that monthly income. And so we wanted to make it affordable to some of the people coming from opportunity village and just as affordable as possible. I mean, that's, that's a that's obviously a very low monthly rate. And so am i is the area median income, which for lane County, it's just under 50 grand a year. And so so for Emerald village, we wanted to serve under 30% of that area median income. And, and as far as how it pencils out, you know, over over the several years now that we've had residents there, we actually we still three houses that are unfinished at Emerald village. And, and that's really because we had a lot of volunteers early for that we're leading the builds and different things, you know, happen with volunteer teams, and, and timelines you know, are different. And so those are those are still unfinished so we it hasn't quite caught up penciled out, for a variety of reasons. And with cottage village, it's on one acre, but there's only 13 homes instead of 22. Right? So there's, there's, there's less of, there's less income and cottage villages is about one just over $1.7 million project. And so what we were able to the population that we were able to serve had to had to be higher than Emerald village, even though we wanted it to be lower, just because of the amount of homes that we were able to build there and kind of how things would pencil out. And, and so, so yeah, down in Cottage Grove, the monthly payments are between 350 and $500 a month. And that's still very, very affordable. Yeah, I

Ethan Waldman 15:57

was gonna ask, like, how does that compare to like the average rent for a one bedroom or a studio? Which I would imagine that's what you might compare these two, you know, in that area?

Amanda Dellinger 16:09

it it's, I mean, it's hard to even compare them because it's so incredibly different. Last time that that I looked and that our organization looked at, at like, you know, one one bedroom apartment rates was back beginning of COVID, when we were trying to find places for some of our most vulnerable residents at opportunity village to go since there's a lot of shared spaces. And we couldn't find a one bedroom, a studio or anything, or under under a grand a month. Wow. Yeah. And so I Eugene actually has one of the tightest housing markets and Cottage Grove as well. There's only about a 1% vacancy. And there's just not enough housing stock. So the the the prices are just in just astronomical and there's not a lot of open, there's not a lot of vacancies, right. And so that's actually what causes the incredible amount and rising level of homelessness that we see is actually less about personal circumstances and more about the the amount of housing stock on the market. And, and affordability, the price of the housing. Yeah,

Ethan Waldman 17:37

I would imagine that you've got a long waiting list of people who who would like to live there. How long does it take?

Amanda Dellinger 17:46

Yeah, that's a great question. So at opportunity village, we do manage a waitlist there. And it's actually it's, it's longer for single individuals than it is for couples. We do have some units that are suitable for couples at opportunity village and some that are good just for singles. But we actually here in lane county 83% of the unhoused population are single individuals. So that's really what we the the need that we try to meet. But so that opportunity village You know, sometimes it would get up to a year waitlist, but it's it's very short right now because through COVID the city and county have banded microsites. So we have two six unit micro sites where that we use the people that were on the opportunity village waitlist, we moved in there, and those are heated units, which is great when there's a little bit less like you don't have to volunteer as much time in managing the community. But then Emerald village. So and cottage Village Square one finds and selects the initial residents. But then after the initial residents move in, like I shared earlier, the membership committee, they take over the application new membership process, they decide how members are selected, and what both Emerald village and cottage village have decided, is that the most equitable way to approach this lottery process so they don't manage a waitlist, which is very cumbersome to manage managing waitlist is it's very difficult thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so what they do is they are they only take applications when a unit opens and then there's a week people have a week to get their application in. And then they literally draw a number from a hat. Each application has a number and they draw a number from a hat or I think They draft three, and then they go through the first one that they draw to make sure the application is is, you know, filled out correctly and that they're eligible, and they check references, and then they start to bring in people to interview and then there's a vote. And then so that's kind of how they both select new resident. Nice. Yeah, and but but the last time Oh, sorry, I

Ethan Waldman 20:23

didn't mean to interrupt was gonna say just, it's an interesting point that you bring up about the waitlist, because it also takes away any judgment on you know, the people who are deciding, which I'm sure can be really hard if you're going to decide, well, who who needs this more, you know, whose story is, is more deserving? You know, it, you don't want to go down that road? And so it's, it makes a lot of sense to do the lottery system.

Amanda Dellinger 20:54

Right? Yeah. And it's hard for other people, because, you know, there's some people that have been applying for years, and they're still not selected, and they wish we had a waitlist. And, you know, so there's, there's, there's pluses and negatives by the residents feel like that's the best way to go. And we empower them to make their their own decisions. And I wanted to say also, that living in a housing cooperative, and all that's required is a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And people don't always realize, you know, how much how much is involved in that. And so, you know, we start, we started doing information sessions before people can apply, so that people really understand it's not just a cheap place to live, you know, to be able to make it so affordable. There's a lot of work that goes into it,

Ethan Waldman 21:43

it's a community that you have to also contribute to not just receive something from I'm curious what and, you know, you can say as much or as little about this about, like, where the funding comes from, for these projects. But is it you know, is it mostly like government, or is it mostly like private funding,

Amanda Dellinger 22:06

so and then with cottage village, since the, since Cottage Grove is significantly smaller, it's a rural town, there's about 10,000 people that live there, and there's less wealth. And we, we did receive our first public subsidy for that project, we received a half a million dollar grant from lane County. And then we have relied more heavily on foundation. So there's been about 20 foundations that have funded us, anywhere from $1,000, all the way up to our our highest foundation gift was from Meyer Memorial Trust to purchase the property for about $200,000. And then we had three $100,000 gifts. Yep. And then, you know, everything in between. And then we also had significant community support from donors in Cottage Grove, and Eugene and also across the country. And, and so we've, we've relied mostly on how community fundraising, and now we're establishing relationships with a lot of these foundations, which will be great. But one of the things that we're that we're that several of my, my colleagues, my co workers are working on, is a more sustainable funding strategy. So we're looking at like a third, third and third model. And, and actually, that's, that's becoming a little bit different, because our next project just got significantly bigger. I think it's like a $7 million project at this point. And so the fundraising portion of that will be about 1.7 million. And then, and then public subsidy, we're looking at lift funds, we're looking at home funds. So these are, you know, fed federal funding programs. And that would fund I think it's looking like up to three or $4 million. And then the other portion of that we're looking at debt financing. Okay. Wow.

Ethan Waldman 24:23

So you really, what I'm taking away is that you really have to get creative in a project like this and look to a lot of different sources of funding because it's not, you know, it's not an insignificant amount of money to raise.

Amanda Dellinger 24:36

Absolutely. And, you know, we raised we raised the 1.8 million with Emerald village pretty much off of, you know, private donations, and that's really incredible and will probably never happen again. And Eugene is a really is a really special place. And so to be able to keep building these villages and share them with other communities. You know, we have to figure out a more sustainable funding model. So yeah, that's kind of what what what we're, our organization is in the process of doing. Got it.

Ethan Waldman 25:10

So another thing that, you know, individual tiny house dwellers face when they try to find a place to put their tiny house, and then also, people in organizations who want to set up some kind of community or village face is just very restrictive, not progressive zoning laws, and also building code laws around you know, what size houses can be built. I'm curious, you know, can you speak to what that process was like, for for the various villages? Like, was Eugene, just all about this? Or did it take some kind of convincing on on that legal end of things?

Amanda Dellinger 25:54

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So there's there's always hurdles, as far as that goes with opportunity village, you know, where we could do something like that was that where it's located now is a pretty industrial area. And there's not since it's technically a shelter, it's not a housing development. Okay. There are a lot of restrictions on where something like that can be placed, we're actually in the process of looking for a permanent spot where we can because we're going to have to move opportunity village in June of 2023. And so we're trying to figure out, you know, what that looks like. And we do have this other three acre property that a donor or major donor, just recently purchased and donated to us. But we can't move opportunity village there because of the zoning, it just doesn't allow for a shelter. So there's, you know, there's a, there's a lot that that we kind of have to contend with. And then there's also a lot that that we have to advocate, for example, with Emerald village. We started building that before the House Bill 2737 and appendix q were passed, which I don't know how familiar you are with either of those or the Oregon reach code, but essentially one of our major donors, who is an incredible partner in our work, and then Dan Bryan, our executive director, and Andrew hibben, our project director, they had done back in 2017. A lot of political work in advocating for this bill and this code to be adopted, which essentially allows for the laughs in the tiny homes to be illegal sleeping lots, Emerald village, there, the laughs there are only storage or only storage Lofts, which you know, some people still sleep in them. But if some, something happens and someone falls out, then it's in the lease that, you know, people aren't supposed to be sleeping up there. And so now down in cottage, cottage village, they are legally permitted sleeping lofts there. And part of the code is having an egress window and then also fire sprinklers throughout the house. Nice. Yeah. And so and then with Emerald village, it's our on r1 zoned property, which we're able to do, essentially multi multifamily detached housing. And so we're able to do that legally. And then it's the same thing with with cottage village. And, you know, I'm not a I'm not a city planner. So I don't know. And thankfully, we have Andy Rubin, who knows an incredible amount about these kinds of, you know, laws and, and issues for these different issues. But to your point about people who build their homes, especially tiny houses on wheels, I think that what I understand before I came on board with our organization, and when we were creating Emerald village was they were trying to figure out how to how we could allow for tiny houses on wheels, you know, which it just it's there's not we're not at the point yet where that legal, you know, so essentially, people who have tiny houses on wheels where they park depending on I mean, if you're if you're in the country, I think there's places in Eugene, where it's legal, but not everywhere in Eugene. And same thing with Cottage Grove. You have to rely on your neighbors not complaining because it's not technically legal, but it's all complaint based. Right. Yeah, there was definitely there was definitely some things to figure out and get around. But yeah, like I said, luckily we have, we have some really smart people with our organization. Sounds like it sounds like it.

Ethan Waldman 30:14

How big is the organization? Like how many people are kind of on the administrative side of the company? The organization?

Amanda Dellinger 30:22

Yeah. So we have on so we have four carpenters, which obviously, that's not administrative. And then let's see here myself, Dan, Andy, Jeff, Raquel. And then our bookkeeping. And our CFO says, seven, I think there's, yeah, there's eight people on the administrative staff. And then there's another three people that were just recently hired. So technically, there's 11. But those three people that were just hired, were directly from COVID funding. And so you know, that that might be temporary. We don't we don't really know. But you can consider them too. So 11. At this point, I just recently jumped up. And what what does a Community Relations Director, what do you do? Sure. So I love my title so much, because I get that question often, like Mo, does that mean? Well, I it includes the development director role, not developing housing, but development as far as fundraising goes. So I head up our fundraising, and events, and I do a lot of PR, work, marketing, communications, social media, also, kind of part of my role is like a general office manager. So I'm kind of the first point of contact in our organization, anytime someone reaches out. And so it's a it's a it's a, it's a lot of different things, right. People in small organizations where a lot of different hats. Yeah, absolutely. And then I also I lead our I'm, I'm a co facilitator of our equity work, our diversity, equity and inclusion work and outreaches, as far as that goes, as well. Nice. Well, this

Ethan Waldman 32:22

is I mean, so fascinating. Is there anything you know about the organization or the model that I haven't asked you? Because I'm like, I'm a complete novice to this topic of, you know, this type of development. So, you know, what Didn't I ask you? What, what are you excited to tell our listeners about?

Amanda Dellinger 32:41

Yeah, well, I just, you've asked a lot of really great questions, Ethan. And the only other thing that I'll share, that I haven't really touched on yet is, is something called the village model. So I spoke a little bit about how we are developing a more sustainable financing strategy. So that other other communities can and other organizations can kind of use this model and share it and build their own communities and such. And so the the village model, you know, includes that financing strategy that I mentioned, it includes the not not just tiny houses, but compact structures. So it could look like a smaller cottage or something like that. And there's, there's there's several different elements to the village model that I think that are, are fascinating. And this is something that we are in the process of developing Now, again, with funds from Meyer Memorial Trust, so that so that we can share as we console with other organizations, and we do have a couple of affiliate organizations now. That that we work directly with. And then we also have, since you can imagine, there's so many people that that reach out to us wanting to learn, you know, ask us a million questions and figure and figure out how to do something similar. And so what we've created is, we call it our village toolbox. And so we have all of our resources from opportunity village, Emerald village and cottage village, and we'll add the resources from our our next villages, available to two members on our website, all electronically, and so people can become a member at just $5 a month at $10 a month, which is called the village builder member people can get a free set of tiny house plans included. Awesome and also Yeah, and also a visual virtual presentation on occasion. It takes a community to build a village. And so you know, that's that's an incredible resource for people. And then we also do consultations as well. Fantastic. Well,

Ethan Waldman 35:13

it's a it's a really great model. And I just am so happy to hear about it and so happy that it's been so successful so

Unknown Speaker 35:21

far. Thank you.

Ethan Waldman 35:24

I was curious if if you are willing to share Can Can you tell me about your own tiny house journey because it sounds like you're you also come to this role from a position of experience as a tiny house dweller.

Amanda Dellinger 35:37

Oh, my gosh, I would love to. So and honestly, my personal experience is really how I found this professional opportunity. So back in 2016, is when we decided to build our tiny house. And again, I had no construction experience whatsoever, but my wife did. And and so we started we started building our home. And we were in we were in Arvada, Colorado at the time, which I'm from Colorado, but we really both wanted to be out here in in the Eugene area. And so I think it was one day where I was especially wanting out of Denver, Arvada, Colorado, I did some research on Eugene, what's going on in the tiny house movement in Eugene. And I found, I found our organization, which we were just opportunity village at the time. And I was like, wow, I really, I definitely want to be involved with that when I get there. It's like, really a perfect thing. And, and so so yeah, we took about nine months, building her house. And it was just it was such an such an incredible journey. I remember at one point, I was telling my wife, like, how are we going to build the tiny house, we don't even have a place where we could build it. And she goes, Yeah, but it like once we once we commit to doing it, then we'll have the conversations that lead us to opportunities like that. And it's like, oh, yeah, of course, you're right. And so that it was like that next week that we had a dinner party and this guy that she knew came over, and we were telling him about it, and that we're looking for a place to build and he was like, Oh, well, I have a three acre lot in Arvada, you guys can just, you guys can just build there. And he like he refused to charge us any rent, or even let us pay for our electricity. We bet so we built the house there. And then we actually lived in the house. Let's see from November in 2016 to march and 2017. And, and then we move we moved the house out to out to Eugene in March of 2017. And and yeah, I would say that for me deciding to build the tiny house. I have a permanent unpredictable disability. And, and I never, I never know. Or when there's been times in my past where I haven't been able to use the left side of my body haven't been able to, you know, drive a car or walk or work and. And so I've I've I have multiple sclerosis and I have found ways to to manage the disease through nutrition, diet, stress management, and definitely lifestyle. And deciding to build a tiny house had a lot to do with that, because I've always seen myself as a provider. And I've always wanted a family especially with with my wife. And and I saw the tiny house as a stepping stone to be able to provide a life that I could afford no matter what the the the disability status was. And it really has been an incredible stepping stone we actually we just bought an old like 100 year old farmhouse on a two acre farm last summer. Cool. And we have our tiny house here and two of our best friends will be moving into it and and i mean learning how to build I feel like I feel like is one of the most empowering things that that someone can learn how to build your own home. I feel like more more people should have that opportunity. And that is that it provides. It made my future so much brighter in my mind. And I feel like yeah, it just gave me a huge boost up and we have a really beautiful tiny house. I'm really super proud of what we've created and So, so yeah, that's a little bit about our journey. Awesome. Well, and then I'll also say, I'll also say that we, we lived in our tiny house with our child for the first 10 months of her life. Wow. Which was also a very big adventure. And, and so yeah, it's it's definitely doable, you know, living in tiny houses with the family. And, and so, yeah, I just wanted to add that. Very cool. Well,

Ethan Waldman 40:31

I really, really enjoyed this conversation. And I so appreciate you being on the show. I will link to square one village great from the show notes page for this episode, which I don't know off the top of my head right now. But people who are listening, I'll say that in the outro. So definitely, you know, check out square one village donate if you can, it's a really just great cause from I, I feel like I've now vetted it as a great cause I could tell it was a great cause before we spoke, but now I'm very much convinced.

Amanda Dellinger 41:04

Thank you so much, Ethan. You're very welcome. Thanks, Amanda. Oh, so excited for this. And I just yeah, and I'm really grateful for you. And thanks so much for having me.

Ethan Waldman 41:19

Thank you so much to Amanda Dellinger for being a guest on the show. You can find the show notes including a full transcript, links to SquareOne Villages, and photos of their beautiful Tiny Homes at thetinyhouse.net/160. Again, that's thetinyhouse.net/160 Well, that's all for this week. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman. And I'll be back next week with another episode of the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast.