Mic Talks Tiny is an expert in vetting companies, especially within the tiny house industry. In this episode, Mic shares invaluable insights on recognizing red flags, avoiding scams, and the importance of due diligence when choosing a builder. We dive into the transition of the tiny home market from DIY to professionally built spaces and the challenges around affordability and luxury. Mic also discusses their plans for a community focused tiny home development and the necessity of honest consumer education in this ever evolving industry. Stay tuned for an eye opening conversation that will equip you with the knowledge to navigate the tiny home world more confidently going forward.
In This Episode:
- 🏠 Tiny House Market Scams: Mic explains how some builders use fake images and testimonials.
- 📋 Due Diligence Importance: Mic emphasizes the need for thorough vetting when choosing builders.
- 💸 Unrealistic Price Expectations: Discussion on how unrealistic tiny home prices fuel scam risks.
- 🌍 Tiny House Communities: Exploration of current trends and variations in tiny home communities.
- 💼 Transition to Professional Builds: Shift from DIY tiny houses to professional builds discussed.
- 🚛 Wheels vs. Fixed Structures: Debate on the viability of tiny homes on wheels versus fixed prefab homes.
- 🛁 Luxury vs. Affordability: The impact of luxury features on the affordability of tiny homes examined.
- 🌐 Future of Tiny Homes: Speculations on the industry's direction and consumer expectations discussed.
Links and Resources:
- Tiny House Live Small, Dream Big by Brett Hevener
- The Idiot's Guide to Tiny House Designing, Building and Living
Guest Bio:

Mic Holliday
Mic is the creator of MicThinksTiny on Youtube, where they focus on providing as many resources/information as possible to anyone looking to go tiny. Mic also works as a consultant for businesses in the industry, has worked as a tiny house designer, and has a background in sociology, public health, and psychology. They plan to create their own tiny house community in the future.
Special Announcement
This will be the last regular episode of the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast. After more than 300 episodes, I'm evolving my focus to help businesses grow through email marketing and podcasting, taking the skills and expertise I've developed here to serve others in new ways. While I may return with occasional episodes, the costs and time required for regular production no longer align with my current direction. I want to thank all of you who've been a part of this journey. Your support and encouragement have meant the world to me.
Mic [00:00:00]: Anyone can be a tiny house builder. All you have to do is make a website, find some pictures, pop them on the website, and now you are a tiny house company, which is a huge problem because people don't check images. So a lot of what I've been trying to do in the past month or 2 through my channel is just get people to do a little bit more due diligence in sort of looking at different things.
Ethan Waldman [00:00:21]: Welcome to the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast, the show where you learn how to plan, build and live the tiny lifestyle. I'm your host, Ethan Waldman. And in this episode, I'm joined by Mic of Mic Talks Tiny, an expert in vetting companies, especially within the tiny house industry, to help us make more informed decisions. Mic shares invaluable insights on recognizing red flags, avoiding scams, and the importance of due diligence when choosing a builder. We dive into the transition of the tiny home market from DIY to professionally built spaces and the challenges around affordability and luxury. Mic also discusses their plans for a community focused tiny home development and the necessity of honest consumer education in this ever evolving industry. Stay tuned for an eye opening conversation that will equip you with the knowledge to navigate the tiny home world more confidently going forward. But first, an announcement.
Ethan Waldman [00:01:14]: This will be the last regular episode of the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast. After more than 300 episodes, I'm evolving my focus to help businesses grow through email marketing and podcasting, taking the skills and expertise I've developed here to serve others in new ways. While I may return with occasional episodes, the costs and time required for regular production no longer align with my current direction. I want to thank all of you who've been a part of this journey. Your support and encouragement have meant the world to me. If you'd like to stay connected or learn more about working together, you can reach me at ethan.waldman@gmail.com. Alright. I am here with Mic.
Ethan Waldman [00:02:13]: Mic is the creator of Mic Thinks Tiny on YouTube, where they focus on providing as many resources and information as possible to anyone looking to go tiny. Mic also works as a consultant for businesses in the industry, has worked as a tiny house designer and has a background in sociology, public health and psychology. They plan to create their own tiny house community in the future. Mic, welcome to the show.
Mic [00:02:38]: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Ethan Waldman [00:02:40]: Yeah, thanks for being here. So can you tell us how how you got into tiny houses in the first place? Your your background is is, you know, kind of somewhere else. And it's a cool background. So how does it all combine?
Mic [00:02:54]: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So my background is, it's like my formal training, if you will, is actually in education. So I've been a professor for the past 10 years. And I've always been interested anything related to housing. It relates to you know, the different things I've studied in all those different areas. But just like everyone else, I got into tiny houses because of HGTV. So I've been watching HGTV for like 20 years.
Mic [00:03:20]: I'm an HGTV nerd. So I watched Tiny Luxury when that first came out. I fell in love with that. I was actually living in Portland at the time. So it was really cool to see a company that was local doing something so cool with tiny homes. And they just make sense to me in general. So it took, let's see, almost like, maybe like, 8 or so years, maybe like 7 or 8 years to get into the industry from when that show came out. But yeah, I started working as a designer in 2023 for a company.
Mic [00:03:51]: But I wasn't a big fan of their of their practices. So I actually knew I was going to quit. So I made the YouTube channel as a reaction to some of the things I had seen in the industry on the design side, mostly around people just being really trusting and giving people tens of 1,000 of dollars without fully vetting them and understanding what their money was going towards. So that's where Mic Thinks Tiny in terms of the YouTube channel came about. I just wanted to to talk about it. And I was hoping that, you know, potentially I could shed light on the process and kind of like, you know, go more behind the scenes in terms of like, what it looks like to be a tiny house buyer, a builder, a designer, someone who lives in a tiny home. And that's sort of where the channel came about. And then the consulting piece, I just saw a need a few months into doing the channel to try to bridge the gap between, you know, consumers and businesses.
Mic [00:04:40]: And so that's sort of where that's come about. So yeah, it's sort of like very roundabout. But But yeah, mostly just because I've watched HGTV.
Ethan Waldman [00:04:47]: Nice. So what are some of those practices that you know, you were not happy with or that you didn't feel like aligned with with your values when you were working for that company. And we don't have to name them if you don't want to.
Mic [00:05:04]: Yeah, I can't I can't actually say too much about it. But I think some of it is kind of been some of the things I've addressed in my videos that I've done more recently around tiny house scams. Yeah. So I think the main thing that I learned working there is that anyone can be a tiny house builder. Yeah. Anyone can be a company, right? All you have to do is make a website, find some pictures, pop them on the website. And now you are a tiny house company, which is a huge problem because people don't check images. So a lot of what I've been trying to do in the past month or 2 through my channel is just get people to do a little bit more due diligence in sort of looking at different things.
Mic [00:05:42]: Because when you see a picture on a website, and it says there's a tiny house company, they've got a they've got like an address, they have testimonials, I think you, you would never think all that would be fake. But unfortunately, I've found, you know, multiple times that that's the case. AI generated testimonials, photos from tiny house companies that are no longer in business. So it's not really something that's super traceable. And so that's kind of you know, those are some of the things that I noticed, and I just it just didn't sit well with me. So even though I did get a lot out of working with the company on the design side, I got to learn about tiny, easy 3d design software, which I love telling them. They're fantastic. It was just sort of unfortunate entry into the industry in terms of being said, kind of like the dark side of it, where people would get to the design phase, and meet with me and do like an hour consultation and still not have any idea what a tiny house was.
Mic [00:06:37]: So I was like, why did you already pay? Why have you already given someone a deposit when you're not really sure what this is? So I think that's those were some of the things that I saw. And I was like, oh, wow, like, this is problematic. Because I do think it's on the builders and the companies to educate people, you know, when they're coming in about what a tiny house is and where it can go and, you know, all these different things. And it's got to be more than just taking your money. And so that's kind of what I saw. I was mostly just about getting the deposit. And then, you know, whatever happens to him after that is, it's not really on the company.
Ethan Waldman [00:07:08]: Yeah, that's kind of unfathomable to me to that somebody would get to the point of having given a deposit and not really even understand what it is that they're, they're buying. Did they think that it was like, can you say more about that? Like, what were people thinking that they were getting?
Mic [00:07:25]: I think they just saw again, I think those just sort of like fell for the photos, unfortunately. Okay. I think they just saw a picture of a really cool design on a website. And they're like, I think that would be great. You know, a lot of people, they're not giving them for themselves sometimes. So they're like, Oh, this will be great for my kids, you know, they're moving back home, like, you know, put this in the backyard or, you know, this will be a great rental, I can, you know, bring in some extra income or it could be a good home office in the back. So Yeah. I think a lot of people were going off of the aesthetic Like they, you know, 1st and foremost, they were like, it's it looks good.
Mic [00:07:56]: But you know, when they get to the design phase, they're like, oh, like, what do you mean I can't have this here? Or, you know, what do you mean that the width is not actually, you know, if it's a 36 by 10, it doesn't mean I actually have 10 feet of space, you know, within the tiny house to walk, they don't, you know, think about like the no one told them about like, you know, the walls width and how that affects how much space you have to work with. There's just a lot of a lot of nuances to that process that they weren't being informed about by the time they got to the design phase. So I think it's just just a trust thing. I think people are very trusting for better or worse. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's creating a lot of problems in the industry.
Ethan Waldman [00:08:33]: Yeah, it definitely is. And I want to ask you actually, because your channel is awesome. It's it's Mic Thinks Tiny. And, some of your most popular videos are videos about, you know, is this a scam or not? And you you explore different companies, you explore like Amazon's tiny home and get houses and various things that you know, may or may not be scams. And I'm curious, what are some of the criteria that you use to evaluate whether a tiny house company, you know, is or is not a scam?
Mic [00:09:09]: Yeah, sure. Those videos were fun to do in the sense of just like knowing that they were gonna help people and be informative. It's always a risk to put content out there where you're questioning or encouraging people to question a process or to think more, more before they make a decision with a company, especially if it's a big company. But the main things I look for are whether or not like, the website is kind of where I start. So Okay. 1st and foremost, if there's no website, that is a huge red flag to me, and that has been the case sometimes. So with the Amazon one, there was no actual website for that company. So there was an Amazon page and nothing else.
Mic [00:09:46]: That was a huge, like, kind of, like, tip-off to me. Yeah. The other piece of things I look at are just the images on the website. So at this stage, since I've been doing this for, you know, I had the channel since late January of this year is when I started it, I've seen so many different tiny houses from different companies that generally I can tell when the image I'm seeing is something I've seen somewhere else. So the images on the website is a huge one under the model section. So if a company is, is got like all these beautifully curated photos, they look super high end and professionally done. You got to do a reverse image search on those because oftentimes, unfortunately, you'll find that like, there's someone else's tiny house. Yeah.
Mic [00:10:24]: Like, I've seen a lot of companies that are, you know, I just I call it what it is. If they're if they've stolen someone's photos, I just call it a scam. Like, I have no problem calling it that.
Ethan Waldman [00:10:33]: Yeah.
Mic [00:10:33]: Like minimal least in Canada is one a lot of a lot of companies have been using. Been
Ethan Waldman [00:10:39]: Stealing their images.
Mic [00:10:41]: Yeah, stealing their photos. There was one where they were taking content from Tiny House, Big Journey on YouTube. Yeah, like blogs. So like, some of them were very blatant things. Like if you if you know these different models, then you would, you know, be aware of like, oh, that's definitely like a, that's a timber graph tiny on like, that's, there's no way that's in their tiny house like that sort of thing. Then the other piece of it's the agreement. That's a tough one because you don't have access to the contract on their website. But oftentimes in the, you know, Better Business reviews, the Google reviews, the Yelp reviews, people will be really forward about what's going on in the contract language.
Mic [00:11:17]: So there have been people who have said things around like, there's no refunds, like don't, don't sign this because they're, you know, there's no way you can get your money back.
Ethan Waldman [00:11:24]: Right.
Mic [00:11:25]: So just a combination of all those different factors are different things that I've done, just to sort of see whether or not it's up to snuff, I guess, if you will.
Ethan Waldman [00:11:34]: I have spoken to several guests over the years who have been scammed in one way or another, you know, having paid money for a tiny home and not gotten what they were expecting. Some of them catastrophically and some of them, you know, there's a whole range. But I I've noticed there's a real hesitancy. People don't want to speak out. You know, they feel scared to speak out against these companies because they, you know, have faced bullying online and have, you know, the companies will go after people. Do you are you worried about that all? And have you heard of anything like that or seen anything like that?
Mic [00:12:18]: So it was my original point of hesitation before I did the Tiny House video with Incredible Tiny Homes where I was like, the title was just Is Incredible Tiny Homes a Scam? Like that was definitely like a point of like, Okay, I'm probably gonna get backlash for this.
Ethan Waldman [00:12:32]: Right.
Mic [00:12:33]: But at that point, I felt like too many people had said things and there were too there was too much information that I felt like I knew. And I felt like sitting on it was just unethical at that point. Like I, I think that if I my goal of my channel is to inform people to help them make decisions about going tiny, I feel like I have a responsibility to provide them with any information I find, or I hear about about companies so they don't lose $50 grand or $60 grand or $100 grand. Yeah. The company that I used to work for has recently filed for bankruptcy. And there's countless people who have gone to local news outlets to speak out against the company. And they're out, you know, $65,000 or more, and they'll never see those homes. So I think, initially, yes, for sure.
Mic [00:13:18]: And when that Incredible Tiny Games video first came out, it got it blew up very quickly.
Ethan Waldman [00:13:24]: Yeah,
Mic [00:13:24]: I think it has like over 1,000 comments on it. I knew most, I knew a chunk of those comments were going to be like, you're gonna get sued or, you know, you're lying and or, you know, and coming at you like people do that they attack your character, they attack you. They find anything about you as a person to attack so that they can feel better about, you know, the discomfort, I guess, that you feel when someone says that someone you trust or something that you trust is potentially not in your best interest.
Ethan Waldman [00:13:52]: Yeah.
Mic [00:13:52]: But what I've found is that the majority of those 1,000 comments are just people speaking out about their experience. And, and feeling like they have the ability to do that because they're in like a, you know, as safe of a comment section of the YouTube channel.
Ethan Waldman [00:14:06]: Yeah.
Mic [00:14:07]: Video page can be. So I think that it's a good thing. I think that if companies are going to go after people for telling the truth that says a lot about those companies, I think at the end of the day, if you're doing something that's illegal, it's going to catch up to you. I don't think there's any way around that with social media and people talking and word-of-mouth. And so I see I see their fear and their hesitation. I was I was concerned too. But at the end of the day, I would much rather be upfront and just give people the information and let them decide. I'm never gonna tell someone like, don't do it.
Mic [00:14:40]: Don't go to this company or that one, like, unless it's like 100%. It's super clear that they're doing something, you know, scammy or illegal, but I want to present the information. And I think that's, that's the best thing that we can do is just present the info, have the conversation. But I totally see why they're afraid because some of those companies will, they would rather pay money to shut them up. Yeah. Then change their business practices.
Ethan Waldman [00:15:01]: Yeah, another one I've heard is that a company, you know, will declare bankruptcy and kind of leave a lot of people kind of hanging and then start a new one. You know, it's just like, choose
Mic [00:15:13]: a new
Ethan Waldman [00:15:13]: name, new LLC. And now you've got you know, you're back in business without all the commitments.
Mic [00:15:20]: Yeah, that's a bummer. And also in the state of California, if a company files bankruptcy, there's only so much that you can do in terms of getting the money back. Like, I think there, you know, there's like a certain amount of money in the bond that they have to pay that potentially go back to people. But for like, like for anchor for the anchor tiny homes case, which is the ADU company here in based out of California, there's hundreds of people. So of those hundreds of people, I mean, maybe each one of them will get like $5 You know, like, they're not gonna get the $100 grand back in a suit against the company. So they know what they're doing when they file bankruptcy.
Ethan Waldman [00:15:53]: Yeah.
Mic [00:15:54]: They know that that's something where like, you know, they're never gonna get, they're never gonna have to pay that back.
Ethan Waldman [00:15:58]: Yeah. Well, another another kind of topic area that I've seen you covering really well is is new tiny home communities. Can you talk about what what you're seeing in that in that part of the industry? Like what any trends? Or are you feeling hopeful about the tiny home community options?
Mic [00:16:19]: It's an interesting space because I feel like every tiny home community, the new ones that are coming up are so different.
Ethan Waldman [00:16:27]: Yeah.
Mic [00:16:27]: I think that when I first did one, I think it was with Tiny Tranquility, up down the Oregon coast, and I'm just a huge fan of, of them. Like, I love, you know, Oregon, the Pacific Northwest. Anyone who knows me knows that that's like my favorite part of the country. That was a really cool video to do just to get people to, you know, learn about one of the OGs that's doing it really well. They have like a 5 year waiting list. Like they're they're the epitome of what a tiny house, you know, community is, and in my opinion, should be. Yeah. But the it's a range now with tiny house communities, like there are developers, you know, real estate developers, you know, RV company developers getting into this space.
Mic [00:17:03]: So you have some that are like, kind of just RV parks in a lot of ways. You have some that are smaller dining house communities where you know, it has more of that like tight knit community feel. And then you have some of the ones that are just like larger. And some of them, you know, the lot rent is like, I think that's the biggest thing I'm seeing is the lot rent range is so wide. Like, you have lot monthly lot rents anywhere from 500 to 900 or $1,000 a month. So I think the industry is changing in that more and more people are getting involved and seeing the value in creating tiny house communities. I think that's just making things gonna make things more expensive the same way that more people getting into the industry. And the industry being Instagrammable is what I call it, has made Yeah.
Mic [00:17:48]: Things more expensive too. So I think we have like more, you know, just it's just more tiered. You have like luxury tiny house communities in the sense because, you know, if you're paying $1,000 a month for a lot rent, that's kind of a luxury market. So that's what I'm seeing. It's just, you know, it's kind of just splitting in terms of the price and what you get for that money.
Ethan Waldman [00:18:07]: Interesting. So do you think it's, in a sense, it's like, the same, it's like, if you go out there and find someone to rent their backyard, and strike a deal individually, that you can probably pay a lot less than if you're going to go to a tiny home community where everything is kind of put on a put on a plat palette for you. Like there's a hookup, there's a pad, there's trash collection, there's you know, there's all this stuff. But do you think that it's a bad thing that there are like, like, I'm just questioning the idea that with more tiny home communities that the prices are they're gonna go up?
Mic [00:18:49]: Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know. I think it's I think it depends on where you live. Because here in California, I'm in San Diego, you can't, I mean, people are renting ADUs in people's backyards for like, 2,800 a month. So you can't, you're not saving money. There's just no way to save money really in California, unless you build your own house out of like sticks and you live on land that no one knows exists.
Ethan Waldman [00:19:10]: Exists. Yeah.
Mic [00:19:11]: In other in other parts of the country, it might be more cost effective to, to get to buy a tiny house and put it in a friend's backyard. For sure, that might be more cost effective. But I think from what I'm seeing the people that are gravitating towards tiny house communities, they really do want the community part like it's the community piece in the name. That is what they want. They want to feel like they're part of the movement. And when they leave their place, they see that you know, everyone that they're around is living in a tiny house. Yeah. You know, they don't want to be in a 2000 or 3000 square foot home anymore or at all.
Mic [00:19:45]: So I think for that group, it's great that there's so many tiny house communities popping up. In other parts of the country where we haven't seen them before, you know, there's you know, more happening in the southeast. I think there's eventually we'll see probably more popping up in like New England.
Ethan Waldman [00:20:01]: Yeah.
Mic [00:20:01]: You know, in the Midwest, too. So I think I think in that sense, it's a good thing. But inevitably, I do feel like it is driving up the prices, because I think that if there's more demand, you can charge more. And because housing is expensive, you know, I think as the as the median home price rises, you know, what we consider affordable rises as well, too. Yeah. The median homes sit at $400 grand So anything under $400 grand is now affordable.
Ethan Waldman [00:20:28]: Right?
Mic [00:20:28]: I don't think it actually is. But that's just the language, unfortunately.
Ethan Waldman [00:20:32]: Right. I've noticed a trend. Or I don't know if it's a trend. I'm not sure if that's the right word. But but I'll just describe it, which is that you see a YouTube video, you see a YouTube tour of a tiny home. And the person says, Okay, this tiny home cost $100,000 And then you get commenter saying, $100,000 That's insane. Like, you know, this house should be $25,000 Or, you know, or people see, you know, they see a tour or they see an article where somebody DIY built their own tiny house on wheels, and it's stunning, and it's gorgeous. And they used all reclaimed materials, and they, you know, it cost them $20,000 and like 3 years of their time.
Ethan Waldman [00:21:14]: It creates an expectation that that that is what a tiny home should cost. And so you get this push and pull between what people think it should cost, what it actually does cost to build 1 and for a company to make a profit. And then that does open the door for these, you know, kind of scam companies to then say, Oh, I can I can build you one for 50, which is not realistic? But then that kind of sucks people in. And I
Ethan Waldman [00:21:41]: don't know if there's a question there.
Mic [00:21:43]: Yeah, I think
Ethan Waldman [00:21:44]: that I guess there was no question there. That was just my thinking.
Mic [00:21:47]: No, for sure. I think that's the case. I think that was the that was the case with the Amazon one. Like, I saw an article. And they were like, Amazon's got this new, there's this new tiny house on Amazon.
Ethan Waldman [00:21:58]: It's gorgeous.
Mic [00:21:59]: Beautiful. Yeah. Price, I think was like $70,000 or something like that. But they had one on there that was gorgeous. And it was for $49,000 The actual price of that home because it was a minimal least home, I think was like closer to $80 or something like that. But yeah, so people just see they see the sticker and they see okay, it's $30 There's a lot of Facebook groups where that's happening, where they'll show these beautiful park models for, you know, 26.99 rent to own, like $26,000 rent to own. You know, you'll see all these people flooding in the comments like this perfect, the price is finally right. And then they're like, private message me if you want to find out more information.
Mic [00:22:33]: I'm like, that's a huge red flag. Because it means that like, there's some sort of bait and switch that's going to happen offline. Yeah. But yeah, people for sure they think that they should, they think that they should get luxury for like $20k. And and I don't blame people for for wanting lower prices. You know, that's it's about their wallets and their budgets. But I think people forget. And maybe it's because of the way this movement started.
Mic [00:22:58]: This movement didn't start out as, like, a bunch of businesses making a profit in a increasingly luxury market that's driven largely by social media. This was more about people that wanted to downsize, reduce their carbon footprint, travel, DIY. And that made sense in that price point. I think what people are experiencing now, I think they're just forgetting that these are businesses that have people on payroll that have to make a profit, you know, and that the price of all the goods have gone up to make these homes. And I just don't think that's caught up.
Ethan Waldman [00:23:32]: Yeah, I agree completely. And I think that I think the industry is in a transitional phase right now. And it's, I think we're more on the far side of that transition, which is that the movement that that, you know, kind of I joined and got involved with in 2012 was a very DIY thing. The majority of people were building their own tiny homes. And I think we we've passed the halfway point a long time ago. And now, I think we're probably 5 to 1, maybe 5 to 1 professionally built to DIY, maybe more. And this is all growing up. While housing has, you know, spiraled out of control.
Ethan Waldman [00:24:20]: It's all really expensive. Tiny houses are a potential solution. But these companies, and now communities are having to grow up and come into existence in order to support the movement. And as you just put so eloquently like that, there's payroll, there's people to hire to run these things, and that all costs money, and people aren't going to work for free.
Mic [00:24:45]: Yeah, no. And I think also I did a video on this because I go back and forth. I'm split on the the idea of tiny homes as an affordable housing solution. I think that DIY tiny homes in people's backyards with affordable overhead are a housing affordable housing solution. I don't think that the mainstream setup we've got going on in this industry right now that caters to the Instagram and the social media crowd and the luxury markets and the Airbnb market. I don't think that's a affordable housing solution. I think that is more than anything a distraction. We do see a lot of a lot of governments and, cities putting 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars into creating tiny house villages for homeless communities.
Mic [00:25:28]: But if you can, if you can put if you can, if you can, you know, set aside $10,000,000 in your in your budget, to build a bunch of like 8 by 10 sheds, so that you can move the homeless community out of sight so that people aren't discomfort, you know, they're not uncomfortable by them anymore. Yeah. Then you could probably do something with affordable housing. So I think that we're kind of in an interesting place right now where people are, you know, it's it's just really split. I really do think there's like, like a bunch of different directions this industry is going. And I am really curious to see what happens in the next like, 3 to 5 to 10 years with this industry because the consumers are upset. That's what I'm seeing in my comments. And that's what I'm seeing is like, people are upset.
Mic [00:26:10]: They think they're overpriced. And a lot of people are questioning whether or not it's worth it to continue to try to figure out a way to go tiny. So I that's what I'm seeing. And so that's where I'm curious about what's gonna happen.
Ethan Waldman [00:26:22]: Yeah, you know, this, this really actually parallels what has happened in the homebuilding world
Ethan Waldman [00:26:29]: the non tiny homebuilding world. Mhmm. Which is that in 2008, when we had the the kind of mortgage housing crash crisis, a lot of home builders went out of business. And the only ones that have come back are building luxury homes, and that we have a shortage of of builders who are willing to build affordable. You know, when I say affordable, I don't mean like by the HUD definition of affordable, I just mean like non luxury. And unfortunately, it all comes back down to capitalism, right? It's like,
Ethan Waldman [00:27:02]: you can make more money building a luxury tiny house, you know, and charge $150,000 for it than you can by building a really bare bones one that costs $75,000
Mic [00:27:13]: Yeah, and I think it's unfortunate, but it's also it's it's such an interesting thing, because it is partially driven by what the people want. Because every time you like and you comment and you share these images of, like, tiny homes that cost $200,000 to build, you are encouraging that side of the market. So I think it's tough because people do want quartz countertops and they want their their rain head showers and their waterfall islands in something that's like 10 or 12 by 36 feet and they want them to be bigger. Yeah. We're in this space now where tiny homes are not actually that tiny. Like people want like a 42 foot long tiny home that's like 15 feet wide with a front porch and a fireplace. And I'm like, so it's kind of getting out of control in that sense. So you can't be like, Oh, I want you know, a brick fireplace and a 16 by 40 foot tiny home, but I want it to cost $30,000 or I'm not gonna buy it.
Mic [00:28:08]: Yeah. Because, you know, that that just that just doesn't make any sense. So it is weird. But yes, I think to your point, for sure, like, I think it is definitely more attractive to builders in this industry even to build something that's high end or at least it looks high end because they can make more money off of it. And and they wanna stay in business. We've seen tiny house companies go out of business. There's countless companies that have gone out of business because they're not making a profit before the pandemic and during the pandemic. So I think that's another issue too.
Mic [00:28:38]: We are losing companies in this industry as well.
Ethan Waldman [00:28:41]: Do you think that the tiny home industry is going to continue being tiny homes on wheels. And the reason the reason I ask is that, you know, I've I've always tried not to yuck anyone's yum in terms of like, if you want a 42 foot tiny house on wheels, you know, a 10 by 40, that's 400 square feet, that's still very tiny compared to, you know, your standard single family home. But I also think that at some point, and I'm gonna say it's around in the like mid 30, like, probably upper 20s, low 30s. To me, it stops making sense to put the house on a trailer. For cost reasons, because that trailer is gonna cost, you know, $15,000 just alone, and just for transportational reasons that you are going to need to hire a semi truck to move it. What are your thoughts on that? And do you think that that the wheels are going to continue to be a focus?
Mic [00:29:44]: I don't think so. I don't think the future of the industry involves tiny homes on wheels, because I don't think people care about moving them as much anymore.
Ethan Waldman [00:29:52]: Yeah.
Mic [00:29:53]: I think the percentage of people in this industry that are looking to go tiny because they wanna move their home and travel and and their remote workers and that sort of thing is not very big. I think the majority of people just want some they want a smaller footprint and they wanna put it somewhere and it's gonna stay there. There, which is why I think park models are becoming more attractive as well, too. And even some tiny house communities are creating communities where the homes are not on wheels. Like the focus is more on prefab homes that look kind of more like a high end ADU than they do like a traditional tiny home.
Ethan Waldman [00:30:27]: Yeah.
Mic [00:30:28]: So yeah, I think that Yeah, I think with the prefab movement that is that is kicking off, it's kind of exploding like it makes it's more cost effective for for a large company, if they can build them to scale, they'll just pump out a bunch of prefab ones that are not on wheels than it is to continue to make them and put them on wheels. Because, you know, for the most part, no one no one really cares if they're getting moved any.
Ethan Waldman [00:30:49]: Yeah, I know that the prefab industry is taking off in California, in a way that it probably foreshadows what will be happening in the rest of the country.
Mic [00:30:59]: Yeah. What do you think? Do you think that they'll like tiny house on wheels? Like, what like chunk of the the industry or their market do you think will go towards them in the future?
Ethan Waldman [00:31:10]: I think that they're always going to be a big chunk of it. Maybe not a majority chunk as more like developments get made like pocket communities and like developments that are building intentionally smaller homes. But I still think the promise of the wheels is that you've disconnected the house cost from the land cost. And so it does make the ownership of a house more possible. And so I think that that's both a great thing and also a sucky thing because it keeps the person trapped in the rental cycle,
Mic [00:31:49]: you know,
Ethan Waldman [00:31:49]: because then they're having to rent land for that house.
Mic [00:31:52]: Mhmm. Yeah, that's true. That's a good point.
Ethan Waldman [00:31:55]: But I mean, you know, where where I live, you know, in Vermont, in Burlington, it's, you know, a very small city. It's the biggest city in Vermont, but it's tiny. And just like so many other cities, you can't there's not really any more room to expand out. And there's really not much. You know, we're not going up yet. So I think the tiny homes on wheels are still such a great solution for doing infill for saying, you know, let's, let's make it easier for people to host a tiny home in their backyard, which I know, it's not really scalable. But it's it's also just another tool in the toolkit that I hope gets that continues to get easier.
Mic [00:32:41]: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I think that I think that's an important part of it. And also, I do think that more and more people are and I don't know what this is going to do to the industry. But more and more consumers are their primary concern is land ownership. So now you are seeing people saying I don't want to move into that community because I don't want to pay lot rent. Like, can I buy the land? I think that is a game changer for this industry to have communities where you can pay if you can buy the land. And I think it's definitely going to present challenges. But I'm just curious about how that's going to shift things as well, too.
Mic [00:33:14]: Yeah, because that that changes things. I think for sure. I think that will change the entire vibe of the the tiny house community aspect of the industry too.
Ethan Waldman [00:33:23]: Yeah, it'd be like an HOA, you know, you'd have like a, like a condominium or townhome.
Mic [00:33:29]: Basically. Yeah.
Ethan Waldman [00:33:33]: Well, I really appreciate this this conversation and kind of bouncing ideas back and forth. You mentioned in your bio that you plan to create your own tiny home community in the future. I'm curious, like, what what's your vision for that? Like, what's what's the vibe? What's the how much community is there? And how much I'm just curious to hear what your thoughts are on are on it?
Mic [00:33:56]: Yeah, I've thought about it a little bit. I really want it to be smaller. I think it's I think it just be easier for me to manage. Yeah. But I do want to because it you know, I do want to have the chance to kind of test it out and see what what works. But I think for me personally, smaller community would make more sense. Yeah, I don't want to take up too much space personally, wherever I decide to buy land, like ideally would be in Oregon somewhere. And I don't want to take up too much space.
Mic [00:34:22]: But yeah, the focus would definitely be on community stuff. And like, hopefully, like health and wellness things and like incorporating different things into the community. Like I'm vegan. So I would definitely try to incorporate things around like food and nutrition and just getting people a chance to like, really connect with each other. Because that's kind of the main thing we're dealing with now. Right? Like, I do feel like some people have mentioned that, you know, they've moved into a community, their main concerns like, well, are my neighbors chill? Like, you know, what's the point of moving into a tiny house community if like, when you step outside of your tiny home, you don't feel like you can talk to the people on the right or the left of you? Like, so I think that is a big piece of it that I would wanna make sure, you know, people feel comfortable and that they're actually interacting with each other. That's kind of the thing that we're we're all craving now, right? Like, we don't talk to our neighbors anymore. Like we're increasingly isolated and more like just kind of defensive and reactive towards each other.
Mic [00:35:13]: We're just not trusting of each other anymore. So I would definitely want to create something where people actually feel like, you know, they have a home, and the people around them care about them and look out for them and, you know, they're not, you know, they they feel safe. I think that would be the biggest thing. So I think in order to do that, in my opinion, you kind of have to keep it pretty small.
Ethan Waldman [00:35:31]: Nice.
Mic [00:35:32]: And I don't know if I would build the tiny homes. Like, I don't know if I would want the tiny homes to be like, you bring your own or like, just like, there's certain ones there already. So like, I'm not really sure how that would work. But yeah, that's kind of what I thought of so far.
Ethan Waldman [00:35:44]: Nice. Well, one thing that I like to ask all of my guests is what are 2 or 3 resources that you recommend that you'd like to share with our listeners? It could be books or YouTube channels or social media accounts are really open ended.
Mic [00:35:59]: Does it have to be it could be anything like
Ethan Waldman [00:36:01]: anything, anything that's inspired you or just helped shape your your journey in the tiny home world?
Mic [00:36:08]: I have two books actually right here. Where are they? This one? This one. Okay, actually, this one is the main one, I would say, which is it's just a picture book. I actually had the author on my on the channel, which is really cool. But I actually really liked this one. Because I think sometimes we can, like, when we're scrolling through like Instagram, and we're on social media, we're just kind of like flipping through photos of tiny homes so quickly. The tiny homes are really beautiful to take the time to actually like, just sit and look at them like, Yeah, not just like scrolling like super quick. So I really like this book because it gave me like a bunch of inspiration in terms of like the design side of things.
Mic [00:36:50]: And also it gave you a lot of history about the different people and it's global. Like it's an international. So So I really like this one, Tiny House Live Small, Dream Big by Brett Hevener. That's a really great one.
Ethan Waldman [00:36:59]: Yep. Let's
Mic [00:37:00]: see. And then this one, I actually read when I first started like a while ago, like in the HGTV days. Uh-huh. The Idiot's Guide to Tiny House Designing, Building and Living. This one was really cool. I like the way that they talked about just their process and they broke everything down. I think this is a great book for anyone that doesn't understand some of the language around tiny homes. Yep.
Mic [00:37:22]: And you know what it takes to build one and why you would do certain things over others. Those would be the 2 that I would like. Let me think. I don't know if I'm, I'm thinking about YouTube channels or not. But, but yeah, those will be the 2 books. I like books. I know I'm like, I know, I'm a YouTuber. And I'm on social media, you know, like we all are.
Mic [00:37:40]: But at the end of the day, I just love I love just reading a book. Like I love paper still. Yeah, I'm actually not as big of a fan of digital and our digital world as you would think, based on what I do, but like, yeah, anytime I could read a good book and recommend it, I'll totally do that.
Ethan Waldman [00:37:54]: Awesome. Well, Mic, thank you so much for being a guest on the show today. This was really fun.
Mic [00:37:59]: Yeah, it was awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Ethan Waldman [00:38:03]: Thank you so much to Mic Holliday for being a guest on the show today. You can find the show notes for this episode, including a complete transcript and links and resources at thetinyhouse.net/313. While this marks our final regular episode, the entire archive of over 300 episodes will remain available at thetinyhouse.net and on your favorite podcast platforms. If you found value in our discussions over the years, I encourage you to explore the back catalog and share episodes with anyone who might benefit from them. Thank you all for being a part of this journey. I'm grateful for every listener who has tuned in and supported the show. You can stay connected with me at ethan.waldman@gmail.com as I move forward with new projects. This is Ethan Waldman signing off from the Tiny House Lifestyle Podcast.
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